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Classical pieces split into multiple tracks

mattspringer
Opening Act

Most classical pieces are entire individual tracks, or individual movements are entire individual tracks.  e.g., a symphony in several movements would have one track per movement.  However, some long pieces like Appalachian Spring, or several Mahler Symphony movements, are long enough that some recordings have the individual pieces/movements split into subtracks.  Pandora does not recognize the several tracks that comprise a single movement; rather, it just plays individual tracks (usually the first one in that multi-track movement).  It's awful; a Mahler symphony movement will start playing and all of a sudden in the middle, bam!, you're listening to the beginning of a totally different piece.  Some performances have intact movements and others don't.  Pandora should only choose recordings in which movements or individual pieces are not subdivided, to prevent this from happening.  If there is not a realistic algorithm to do this, then some human should curate the collection and remove recordings that are in subdivided tracks. (I've also heard Jupiter from The Planets start in the middle of the piece, at the slow section.)

 

mod edit: changed title for clarity

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AlyssaPandora
Community Manager
Community Manager

Hey there, @mattspringer. 👋

Thanks so much for your feedback about this. I completely understand where you're coming from. I moved your post over to the My Collection space to keep the community organized.

Pandora radio stations are caught in a complicated set of licensing rules that were designed for the world of pop songs and ignore the realities of how Classical music is presented by the record labels. One rule prevents us from playing a number of consecutive tracks from the same album.

Unfortunately, many labels choose to divide longer classical movements into separate tracks. We are required to treat each track as a separate "song". The result is as you describe. We are torn between offering portions of fine performances of outstanding music and not offering those works at all.

Pandora radio stations are caught in a complicated set of licensing rules that were designed for the world of pop songs and ignore the realities of how Classical music is presented by the record labels. One rule prevents us from playing a number of consecutive tracks from the same album. Unfortunately, many labels choose to divide longer classical movements into separate tracks. We are required to treat each track as a separate "song". The result is as you describe. We are torn between offering portions of fine performances of outstanding music and not offering those works at all.

As a solution, you may consider upgrading to Pandora Premium, which combines our radio service with on-demand listening and allows you to create custom playlists. Premium allows you to find and listen to individual pieces or complete albums without the restrictions noted above.

Use this link to learn about the many benefits of upgrading.

That said, we are continually working on ways to present classical music on Pandora radio stations in a more appropriate manner.

On that note, we now have a station dedicated to full classical works that you can check out here.

Alyssa | Community Manager
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AlyssaPandora
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Alyssa | Community Manager
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AlyssaPandora
Community Manager
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Hey there, @mattspringer. 👋

Thanks so much for your feedback about this. I completely understand where you're coming from. I moved your post over to the My Collection space to keep the community organized.

Pandora radio stations are caught in a complicated set of licensing rules that were designed for the world of pop songs and ignore the realities of how Classical music is presented by the record labels. One rule prevents us from playing a number of consecutive tracks from the same album.

Unfortunately, many labels choose to divide longer classical movements into separate tracks. We are required to treat each track as a separate "song". The result is as you describe. We are torn between offering portions of fine performances of outstanding music and not offering those works at all.

Pandora radio stations are caught in a complicated set of licensing rules that were designed for the world of pop songs and ignore the realities of how Classical music is presented by the record labels. One rule prevents us from playing a number of consecutive tracks from the same album. Unfortunately, many labels choose to divide longer classical movements into separate tracks. We are required to treat each track as a separate "song". The result is as you describe. We are torn between offering portions of fine performances of outstanding music and not offering those works at all.

As a solution, you may consider upgrading to Pandora Premium, which combines our radio service with on-demand listening and allows you to create custom playlists. Premium allows you to find and listen to individual pieces or complete albums without the restrictions noted above.

Use this link to learn about the many benefits of upgrading.

That said, we are continually working on ways to present classical music on Pandora radio stations in a more appropriate manner.

On that note, we now have a station dedicated to full classical works that you can check out here.

Alyssa | Community Manager
Join the discussion in Community Chat
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Share yours: Q: What's your sound color?

mattspringer
Opening Act

Thanks, some comments: First, the solution to the problem of longer individual movements and pieces being divided into multiple tracks and you being prohibited from playing multiple tracks has a simple solution that I suggested: avoid those performances in the first place.  I know from experience with Pandora that for each performance that splits pieces into fragments, there are other performances of the same piece that keep them intact.  I just went through the Mahler symphonies last night, searching for them in Pandora "add variety" with Apple Music open in a different window so that I could view which performances were subdivided, and removed any seed pieces from my classical station that were subdivided, replacing them with recordings of intact pieces.  Similarly, Pandora content includes for full recordings of Appalachian Spring and Jupiter, and recordings of fragments of those pieces.  The problem will go away if you curate your offerings in a way that rejects the ones that are fragments.  I am pretty confident that none of your listeners want to listen to fragments of music that just stop suddenly in the middle.  

By the way, the complete classical performances station was my solution for a while but I gave up, because only rarely is a complete piece played despite the name, and the station is really annoying because while it takes thumbs up and thumbs down, it doesn't take seeds/suggestions like regular stations do, and despite hundreds of thumbed up pieces, it fixates on about 20 of them and plays them over and over again, requiring frequent "I'm tired of this track" clicks but doesn't take suggestions for diversifying content.  

And I tried Premium in the past and downgraded because it was over bloated and required too complex of a navigation, and the interface that surrounded cover art with a field of the cover's predominant color ruined the aesthetic intent of the cover art.  Haven't checked it out recently but I want something that just works without me having to put in too much effort and lets me see the cover design the way the artist intended.

davehein
Local Performer

Music Choice on Comcast has two classical channels. One is lighter works, and it often plays individual movements. One is called “Masterpieces” and generally plays complete works, including multi-movement works. How do they beat the rule that limits you to no successive tracks? Granted, your potential audience is the whole world, while theirs is limited only to Comcast subscribers. They still have a pretty public potential audience. I would be happy to upgrade if that gave me access to a complete work station with a real range of programs.

Hint: Maybe. MC uses a lot of really old recordings, which may make a difference in copyright  enforcement. Recordings by Stokowski have to have been made a LONG time ago!

AlyssaPandora
Community Manager
Community Manager

Hey there, @davehein. 👋

I completely understand where you're coming from. However, our licensing may be very different than Comcast. 

In the meantime, Premium allows you to find and listen to individual pieces or complete albums without the restrictions noted above. You can also create playlists or check out some of our curated Classical playlists.

I do see that you're upgraded to a free trial of Plus right now, if you're interested in upgrading to Premium instead, let me know and I can private message you.

You can view the differences and benefits of Plus and Premium subscriptions here🎧

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eggman2
Local Performer

I have upgraded to Premium and still cannot figure out how to add a COMPLETE album of a Beethoven piano concerto despite you comment above. The site is very confusing. Thank you for any assistance.

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AdamPandora
Community Manager
Community Manager

@eggman2 What is the name of one of the albums you are having trouble adding to your collection?

Let me know.


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eggman2
Local Performer

Beethoven piano concerto no. 1. 

I went to the “checkout complete album list” only to be told that it was not available. 

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AdamPandora
Community Manager
Community Manager

@eggman2 Would it be possible to send me a screenshot of what you are seeing?

Thanks for working with me on this. 🤝


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Johnny0634Cash
Underground

Does the total number hours X persons listening 👂[i.e., ratings] matter.

advTHANKSance. 

FYI, he was still recording in 1977 (he was 95!).

I'm just this guy, see?
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Harrykarr
Opening Act

It would help me to have a profile setting to play all the movements of a composition as one piece.  I can accomplish this with a Playlist but many times I play radio stations.  

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AdamPandora
Community Manager
Community Manager

@Harrykarr I moved your post over to this existing thread: Classical pieces split into multiple tracks

Check out the accepted solution for more information around this.

Hope this helps explain.


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Regnirts
Local Performer

Is it possible to listen to complete classical music compositions?

I recently created a station for listening to classical music. I either did something wrong, or Pandora for some reason is incapable of playing entire compositions.

Just to get the thing going, I searched Beethoven's symphonies. This produced a "Playlist by Pandora Classical." It listed "37 songs" (already a bad omen). To the right of each movement ("song") there was a 3 dot menu, giving me an option to start a station "from artist" or "from song." I tried it both ways, with the same result: Pandora plays a single movement from one composition, and then goes on to a different composition.

The experience is similar to being limited to reading a single chapter from a book or watching a single game from a tennis match. There's no point to it.

So is Pandora really limited this way or am I missing something fundamental on how to properly set up a classical station? If I am, would someone please let me know how to do it?

Thanks.

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AdamPandora
Community Manager
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@Regnirts Nice to see you around the community.

I moved your post over to this existing thread: Classical pieces split into multiple tracks

Check out the accepted solution for more information around this.

Hope this helps explain.


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Regnirts
Local Performer

Thanks for the explanation.

Just a heads-up. I started listening to that station, and one of the first pieces it played wasn't fully identified. It was simply entitled "(Full Work) Cello Concerto in G Major, G. 480 Scottish Chamber Orchestra." I recognized the piece as one by Boccherini. Had not not been something I recognized, though, I've no idea how I could have found out, unless the title happened to provide sufficient clues (here, for example, the "G. 480"). So I'd really recommend Pandora's providing sufficient identification for compositions that turn up on that station.

Thanks again.

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Regnirts
Local Performer

I've been listening to the complete performances station this afternoon. The composer isn't identified for five of the six compositions played so far. Very discouraging.

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AdamPandora
Community Manager
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@Regnirts Can you please let me know the names of the compositions you are referring to where the composer isn't identified?

Thanks for working with me on this.


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Regnirts
Local Performer

It's been a few days since you asked me for this information. Sorry for the delay in replying, but I didn't get any notice that you'd replied until this morning, when I received a private email telling me about it. (Not complaining; just explaining.)

Listing every composition that Pandora hasn't "correctly" identified (i.e., hasn't named by composer) honestly would be a full time occupation for one such as myself, because it seems that probably the majority of the classical pieces exhibit this problem. (I do list some below, however.) Also, Pandora can easily learn for itself, for one merely has to play the complete classical station for a while to see that the composers often are not named.

I'm a little surprised that no one has raised this issue before -- but only a little, since I'm sure that the very great majority of Pandora's customers listen to pop, not classical. (Classical music listeners have gone the way of people who read books. Relatively speaking, there just aren't that many any more.) I myself subscribed so I could listen to blues, plus a few other genres, where there's no problem with the way that Pandora identifies the music (and, even more important, where there's a much larger selection of music).

In any case, I'm including several screen captures with this message to illustrate the problem. I've entitled each by composer. For one that's adequately identified, see "CPE Bach." But notice that it's the only one of nine compositions in the screen capture where Pandora bothered to include the album cover. All of the others are merely blank squares. I've never seen an album cover omitted for any other type of music on Pandora.

See the "Telemann" attachment, where the composer's name is missing. I don't listen to Telemann (wrong era for me), but, aside from being familiar with his style, I guessed it was he because while the music was playing (but not afterward) the last line of the identifying info ended with "Tele...". Presumably Pandora made the effort to provide his name, but for whatever reason sufficient screen space wasn't made available. I had to confirm who the composer was by Googling the information that did appear.

See also "Boccherini," "Geminiani," "JS Bach" and "Prokofiev." None of these pieces were identified by composer. Going on memory, I didn't notice any of them, as in the case of the Telemann, providing even part of the composer's name while the piece was playing.

The poor identification of these pieces resulted, I think, from the fact that whoever entered the information was essentially clueless about classical music. And, although it may be uncharitable to say so, I suspect that it was also the case that that person really didn't care. After all, it shouldn't take even a moment's thought to realize that if you simply identify a composition as, say, "Symphony No. 1", even if you also list the name of the orchestra performing it, you've hardly identified it at all, since there are so many Symphony No. 1's floating around. (Who on earth would think that only one person has ever composed a symphony?) Even if you also list the opus number, or the key in which the piece was composed, how does that help a listener who doesn’t already know who the composer is?

Ultimately, I think the deal is that Pandora simply isn't interested enough in classical music listeners. That may also be an uncharitable view. But it's suggested to me not only by the poor identifying information discussed above, but by the fact that the selections are so seriously limited. I've been listening to the complete classical station off and on for only several days, and the Boccherini piece identified above has popped up at least four times, probably more often than that, and there haven’t been any other Boccherini's. There perhaps was one other (a flute quintet?), although I suspect that I heard (only one movement of) that one on the "incomplete classical station.” If the only thing by Boccherini that I hear is the same piece played over and over again over the course of only a couple days, the law of averages suggests that Pandora has very, very little of anything else, possibly nothing else, by that composer. Something that's true of many of the other pieces I've heard. Haydn, for example, composed over a hundred symphonies, yet I've heard only one of them played -- again repeatedly -- on the complete station. I did notice that JS Bach -- another non-favorite of mine -- is all over the place, but only if I try to listen to the incomplete classical station, which I no longer have any interest in doing.

I'll give the complete classical station a few more days, but I strongly suspect that after that my listening to Pandora is going to be limited to blues and other music that Pandora takes more seriously than classical.BoccheriniBoccheriniCPE BachCPE BachGeminianiGeminianiJS BachJS BachProkofievProkofievTelemannTelemann

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